Jazz Drumming

[Clintuplet]

(Deep breath) Over the course of over a year I have been listening and mentally studying a lot of jazz music, trying to soak up the language. Mainly Be- Bop and some Post-Bop. Drummers such as Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Art Blakey and even the mind boggling playing of Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes and Jack DeJohnette have permeated my ears. While I feel that I'm somewhat closer to understanding certain elements of this beautiful music, the subject of comping eludes me to no end. In short, when and how often should one comp? Where do these comping ideas come from? Are they predetermined patterns to be practiced or are they part of a more complex interaction with the other musicians that are improvised in the moment? Please pardon my ignorance and thanks for any help. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Clint

[no_bells]

there's a bunch of different ways to comp and remember there are no rules. i would also suggest getting John Riley's Art of Bop Drumming book which talks about comping and a lot of other important aspects of jazz drumming.

the two most recognizable styles of comping are left-hand piano rhythm style and the conversational style. Jimmy Cobb on Miles Davis' Kind of Blue is a good example of comping in a manner that emulates the left hand of a piano player's rhythms outlining the harmonic structure of a tune. although a lot of the players that you mentioned do many styles of comping, i'd put Philly Joe in this category as well. I should also add that it depends on the style of the tune. Your more basic AABA tune with standard changes would work well with this style of comping. Art Blakey has more of a riff style of comping where he repeats certain rhythms to create more of a groove.

Jack DeJohnette, Elvin Jones, and of course Roy Haynes employ an interactive style. Philly Joe also has an interactive style of comping like on Al-eu-cha with Miles. The forms that Elvin, Roy, and Jack were playing were more wide open. Instead of two chords per bar found on a lot of standards they were playing on tunes that had modal harmony which had one chord per eight bars for the most part. Their comping was more of a surge with denser rhythms incorporating all aspects of the drum kit.

I would also recommend getting 'Beyond Bop Drumming' by John Riley since we haven't even touched upon ride cymbal patterns and feathering the bass drum which has its own history.

[Nikk]

DEFINITELY get the Riley books. I promise they will answer your questions.

[Dazzler]

Hear hear no_bells! I totally agree with your comments. The two Riley books are an excellent resource and will give you lots of information on the various comping styles in jazz drumming and why the greats played what they played. As no_bells said, Philly or Max would phrase their comping in 4 or 8 bar phrases whereas Elvin or Jack would hear whole chorus' and maybe even then wouldn't resolve on the first beat of the next chorus. The tention in their playing is incredible.
I would say that knowing a melody is a good place to start. If you can sing to aloud a standard such as Bye Bye Blackbird while playing slow cymable time, you will get to know the form of a melody. Try singing and playing the melody with your left hand as you play the ride patten. Once you feel comfortable you can play in the gaps thus 'playing off' the tune. When you then add the BD to the phrasing, not only does it bome an exercise in co-ordination, but you will then start to hear the comping figures that you are after.
Let the music dictate what you play. It's easy to comp too much and get in the way of the soloist. John Riley talks about increasing the rate of your comping figures as a solo builds intensity.
The most impotant thing to note though is the cymbal time, which is the main voice in jazz drumming. Never sacrifice good, solid time for comping that will detract from it.

[beat Hit]

NICE THREAD! Another one demonstrating the strength of HOD... Rich in knowledge and advises.

Thanks guys, great insights...

[Steve Holmes]

This is something that I would like to address in a video some day. Not that I'm an authority by any means, but I recognize the depth of the question and would be eager to share the things that have worked for me in the past.


I learned Independence from Chapins ATFTMD and Ted Reed's Syncopation book (which is my bible essentially for reasons I'll share another time). Erskine's video Everything Is Timekeeping helped introduce Independence to me as well.


Listening is obviously a huge part (as you said you've been doing). I listened to drummers and what they did with their left hands and took note of things I thought that worked (and didn't). I also listened to how they played the swing pattern on the ride. Some guys will phrase more 16th-ish, others more triplet-ish. The faster the tune, the more that line gets blurred really.

Jazz music and drumming I find that swings the most is largely due to the cymbal and where it is dynamically. For me it should be way out front. In jazz, the cymbal IS the bass drum and snare drum. It provides the groove (or the swing). What the other limbs do should help it along really. Some guys(myself included) get caught up in "Hey look what cool ghost-noty advanced Independence shit I can do while swinging the ride!". Sometimes this works but mostly it's just for the sake of itself really. This is why I don't like fusion drummers' version of swing playing a lot. They're too busy doing other stuff, and not SWINGING. It's gotta swing. I would ask myself that a lot while I was playing with musicians. IS IT SWINGING??? Ask yourself. This is why I end up closing my eyes during swing tunes a lot. I'm listening, like I'm listening to a CD or something. Then I do what I can to make that imaginary CD sound good to me.

Then there's the the whole aspect of respecting what's being played. When someone is soloing, I don't want to get in the way. I sure would hate it if someone was playing all kinds of aggressive stuff while comping for me. I keep this in mind while I comp. Listen to the soloist, try to support. Provide time that feels good to them so they can do their thing even better. That's the finish line for me. When guys say that stuff after a gig, "Hey man it felt great." Sometimes I just ask if they felt comfortable and if I was shitting on their solo <strike>Like on Scophile.</strike>

Once you get basic jazz drumming down, You absolutely need to play with guys. It IS the only way to get to that place. Get familiar with standards. It's not hard, many of them have heads that aren't very long. Try to feel the form during the solos, not just the head. Sing the head to yourself during the solos. Listen how the solo follows the same changes (most of the time). Also sing the head while YOU'RE trading or soloing, eventually you'll start phrasing off the head and that's THE SHIT folks.

OK Jazz rant done. I sure would like to hear from ERSKOman on this one.

[Nikk]

I saw Ed Soph in clinic (one of Weckl's old teachers and now head of drum set at North Texas) two weeks ago and he said the best drum method book we can buy is a Real or Fake book. For those unfamiliar, these are just spiral-bound, huge collections of standards. They contain the head and the changes. It's great to see the rhythms and melody and improvise off of them. Furthermore, many contain tune discographys for our convenience.

[no_bells]

Nice posts guys. It sounds like you are in it for the long haul so I would also suggest going further back into the history of the music. Start with "early jazz"recordings that have drummers on them ie. Louis Armstrong w/ Baby Dodds or Zutty Singleton and work your way back to be-bop. The choices musicians made in the be-bop era came as a result of what came before them. To me doing this will make everything really clear and give a deeper appreciation of the music which will inform your playing as well. There are ways to do this research without feeling like you're doing a doctoral thesis. Another good book to start would be "52nd Street Beat" by Joe Hunt. It's an abbreviated history of jazz and jazz drumming w/ a focus on the be-bop and post bop eras. It also has a nice little discography in the back. Happy hunting!

Steve pretty much said it all regarding other aspects of playing the music. I agree with the comping not getting in the way with the soloist. There are some musicians who want you to "comment" or "push" them in their soloing; more of an aggressive sound under their solos so, alot of it really depends on who you are playing with as well.

[beat Hit]

Funny as I was reading along, I also said: "Would be interesting to read Erskoman on this one"

You've nailed it Steve "You absolutely need to play with guys. It IS the only way to get to that place." Playing with folks... I don't do enough of that these days...

[ladanny]

Wow, great posts!

How important is the ride? Well, as they say at North Texas (in my best Texan accent) "Boy, you gotta STARE at that ride and make sure it swings before you do ANYTHING"

One mistake I used to make all the time was playing the ride WAY too soft. We think "oh, it's jazz. I better play nice and light on the ride." As Steve stated, the ride IS the kick and snare of jazz.

Danny